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Interviews > Joe Alves
How did you end up being an
art director and
I started at Disney when I was in art school in animation and I was 19 and
I did that a couple of years but I really wanted to get into live action. I did
some sets on the Hollywood Playhouse and it was a small theater but it had some people interesting. Clifford Odets did a play. He actually showed up
and he liked what I did. He said, "I'm gonna use you on Broadway." What I did is
incorporated a movie with stage play and all that. Then from there the producer
or the director of the theater introduced me to art director Stan Galli. He told
me how I should go bout getting a job as a set designer. That's how you have to
start. You don't start as an art director or a production designer. You started
either as a set designer or an illustrator. You did either architectural
drawings or you did illustrations. I finally got a job with Bob (Robert)
Kinoshita on Man in Space and I didn't know if I was an art director or a
set designer and he said, "I need somebody to draw the set drawings." Then I
started as a set designer and I worked at MGM (Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer), Fox, Universal, Warner Brothers
as a set designer. I worked on some pretty good films. I eventually got settled
at Universal and I was a staff set designer and somebody came in to the set
department and he said, "Did somebody know what a Lotus car was?" and I said,
"What do you mean? There's a lot of Lotuses. Race cars, sports cars." He said,
"You know cars." I said, "Yeah." "Well, we need somebody to do Indianapolis
broadcast for the first time to do some kind of display and drawings." So I did
that and went back to set design and the next year the head of the department
said, "They want you to do it again." I said, "Well, yeah but I think you should
make me an art director." So he made me an assistant art director. I worked on a
lot of pictures. I worked with (Alfred) Hitchcock on Torn Curtain and it went that way.
You worked until eventually you got your own show and I started doing television
shows. I did Night Gallery for (Steven) Spielberg and then eventually you
do features. I did Sugarland Express and then on Jaws for the
first time I got the production design credit. It's the same job basically. Now
everybody gets production design credit. It used to be, you had to do a special
movie that has special challenges that you design the whole production. Now they
all get the credit production design and the art director works for the
production designer. Then it went on from there.
How did you get
the assignment to be the Production Designer for Escape From New York?
It's sort of an interesting story. I had an agent at the time. Phil Gersh. It's
a big agency. Phil Gersh has been around for years. He was Humphrey Bogart's
agent etcetera. Very powerful and I was fortunate to get him as an
agent as a production designer. I had after Jaws 2 directed 100 days
of second unit so I was interested moving into direction. I had
a project that was suppose to shoot all over Europe about Formula One racing and
scouted all over. France, Italy, even Holland and I came back and the studio had
gone under so the project was dead and a couple of weeks later my father died
and it was just a long story like this. So my agent said, "You know, you
should get back to work." He said, "I represent a young film director named John
and he's got this project called Escape From New York." So I was
older and I had been nominated for the academy award, won the British academy award.
like a small film at this time but Phil thought it would be good for me to get
busy. I met John and Debra Hill (Producer) and they are very interesting and I thought
the project had a lot of possibilities because the futuristic setting and all
that. So I got on board. So Phil negotiated things. He sort of put this together
because of mutual agents. So that how's that happened.
How did you and John Carpenter
prepare for this project and how did you
collaborate? Did you
have any sources of inspiration and such?
It was interesting how the thing developed. I had to sort of motivate some of
the people that he works with as aggressive
as I was having come off Jaws and Close Encounters (of the
Third Kind). Bigger pictures
with bigger problems and so some of the big problems were to look at were
obviously New York and all of that. Very specific set locations such as a bridge
that ends into a wall. That was the first thing to key off. I was playing with
the look. The futuristic look but key locations was New York City and finding
the bridge that would end in a wall.
Not really. I think it just sort of grew. It sort of grew as we got into it. I
still have a lot of the original sketches. It grew from there was just doing sketches and the futuristic was obviously the
United States police thing and I wanted to make that sort of a little bit Nazi
looking if anything. Futuristic Nazi. I mean, I hung the flag at this place and
very sort of clean. Sort of if you took the 30s and you made it future but
what's important I think is how the thing laid out as far as New York. John,
and I went to New York City and we went to the top of the Trade
Center because that was scripted and we stood there and looked at New York and
we said, "We don't have a budget to do New York. We have to do something
different." I knew that I would have to duplicate the top of the Trade Center
somewhere so we can have the glider land there. The sad thing is that there is
no Trade Center anymore.
Well, we would go through the script and he would express his thoughts about it.
I'm not sure anything specifically. We just took it scene by scene. We needed an
airplane crash. I got him an airplane and topped it up. We did that. Locations.
We scouted all that.
kind of challenges
did you encounter and which sets or scenes were the most
challenging, problematic, memorable and fun to work on?
Here's how these things developed. I guess I pushed the envelope as far as I
could. We were looking all over for this bridge and we found the bridge in St.
Louis and it was a very controllable bridge that we could use but it didn't have
a wall. So the idea that I would build this wall about 200 feet long and about, I
can't recall, maybe 50, 60 feet high. That was a fairly big build and we did
that with a scaffolding. Got a scaffolding company and we covered all the
scaffold with plywood and then I had my painter Ward Welton (Paint Supervisor) who had worked with
me since Sugarland Express, Jaws and Close Encounters. Many movies. Very expert.
So I had some expert people on that.
The bridge of course we dressed.
Oh, I think the thing that people remember a lot and this is sort of funny is
Isaac Hayes' (The Duke) chandeliers on his car. What happened was. Debra said to me, "Can we do some
kind of little
or something inside the car that would reflect?" and I said, "Oh yeah, Debra we
could do that." I remember going with a decorative service in Norba,
California and finding
chandeliers and I said, "Let's buy a
bunch of those
and put them on the hood of the car. Two on the
fenders." and of course we're doing stunts with this thing so they're breaking
like crazy and each time we have to replace it but that sort of. Isaac
is driving and it's going thump, thump, thump, thump, thump and then you see
this thing with these crazy
chandeliers and I get a lot of comments
about that and that just sort of evolved.
So now we're in St. Louis and the thing is
with movies, making movies is very expensive so if you better be in St. Louis
then let's see how much of St. Louis we could use. Let's see if we can use
Downtown St. Louis as New York and there was a whole urban redevelopment area. So there was a big section of New York that they were going
to redo so we could pretty much do anything we wanted there. We could trash it. We'd have to clean it up and then trash it in weird
areas where the helicopters could land. Then we found the old train station and
that was pretty much deserted. That made a wonderful setting for a New York, a real down looking New
York. So while we were in St. Louis then we could utilize the train station and
other kind of facilities there.
And the airplane. This is an interesting thing.
The burning airplane where the president's pod comes out. I went to Arizona
where they have sort of a graveyard of airplane parts. So I was going with my
assistant and we were marking things that we wanted to buy or rent and as I was
coming to the conclusion of my checking somebody mentioned there, "You know, they
have a DC-8, an old DC-8 prop plane, that's a big prop plane though for sale
for like $5000." and I said, "Really? That would make great parts." I said,
"Where is it?" He said, "In St. Louis." What's the chances of that happening? So I
cancelled all my parts, went to St. Louis and I found the DC-8 and I thought,
"Ok, I could take the engines out and the propellers." and my painter who became the
coordinator basically he found a way of cutting it in pieces and we transported
it to this lot in Downtown St. Louis. We did it at night. We didn't have
permits. That worked extremely well and then Roy Arbogast (Special Effects
Supervisor) was the special effect man on it. That's
the one that we burnt and someone laid the shot out and John just loved it. He
said, "I'm just shooting Joe shots here." We got along so well. It was really a
wonderful group. Larry Franco
and Debra and John. So I was sort of laying things
out and John was coming and say, "That's great." and we found an old theater there
so St. Louis became the hub.
We shot the exterior of the Trade Towers in Century City in Los Angeles and
then the interiors
at CalArts (California Institute of the
I had to do a lot of graffiti so I
brought rows and rows of butcher paper and put them on the walls and then we did
the graffiti because we couldn't harm the walls.
The Art Center (College of Design) (Liberty Island Security Control Interiors)
was a black and white beautiful building and it worked really well for us.
The theater was
a theater in Los Angeles and was doing a lot of making everything look
bad. Getting in there and aging it and putting a lot of trash and stuff like
that so that was a tricky thing.
So we had to still shoot this Statue of Liberty and
so what we decided to do. I had been designing the big set at a basin we have
here called Sepulveda Dam and it has some nice big concrete structures and a nice
big concrete area so I was building the sort of buildings that sit there. Very
sort of modern, geometrical looking and I built a sentry post
where Tommy Atkins (Rehme) comes down and walks through. We built the set, the sentry
post, put it on a truck and drove it across the country and we got to the ferry.
We all flew there but when it arrived we put it on the last ferry going to
Liberty Island so we didn't have to pay for a special boat and then we set it up
at night and then we did the shot. John did the shot with a panning down the
Statue of Liberty. Tommy comes out. He walks into the building. You see him
going through and then Dean Cundey (Director of Photography) was very clever.
Today they do it in CGI (Computer-Generated Imagery) and whatever so easy but he
had a dolly track and he moved it and then we had a space of just black. It said
something. I can't remember the exact word. Anyway, as he panned or as he
dollied through when he got a frame of black he cut. Then we shipped it back to
L.A. He measured the exact dolly distance and the timing and he picked it up and
then Tommy came out the door and we were in Los Angeles. So that was very clever
for the time and we did very cheaply that way but it worked because it flowed.
It was one continues shot that started with the top of the Statue of Liberty.
Panned down. He continued on. The dolly moved up. Then we continued the dolly.
Then the pan in L.A. and that's how they did that transition.
How did you come up with the design for the Liberty Island
Security Control scenes, Air Force One escape pod, World Trade Center rooftop,
Chock full o'Nuts and Grand Central Station gladiator ring for instance and how
were they constructed?
Everything was pretty much extreme architecture in the way that I didn't want
any soft curves or anything. I wanted everything pretty straight. Sort of
angled. That kind of thing. Just angled, sharp, black so it would have that
military look without making it military colors.
In other words. The United States Police Force
wasn't the nicest. The country had changed. Became very militant and I was
trying to express that.
The pod. That was sort of interesting.
Why I did an egg-shaped pod. Well, because a pod is sort of a strong structure
and I figured I put him in a pod and make it orange in case if a plane crashed
the pod would stick out. It would hold together and you would find it. I thought
egg could be strong. It has no weak sides to it. I didn't want to make a box
because a box could collapse. Of course eggs you can crack it but if it's made
out of metal it would be pretty hard to break an egg. It was interesting because
sometime later somebody thought that in the Air Force One that they had a pod
like that to protect the President. We just made that up and John liked the
idea. It worked out really good because then we had in all that rubble on the
streets we had this orange pod that pops out and the President was in that.
Well, we did that because we had to have the glider land on that. We just did it
out in the desert. Couldn't afford a sound stage. I just built it and it was
suppose to be the top of the Trade Center.
Oh, yeah. It was Lexington Avenue. We went to
New York and I got pictures of it and I tried to match Chock full o'Nuts as best
as I could. That's how it always works. We always go scout and I take pictures
of locations. Like I scouted Jaws by myself. The whole east coast and
Close Encounters I went and shot all these towers. The Devil Tower. You
know, with 35 millimeter and we take pan shots and we come back to the studio.
We put them on big illustration boards and then the director looks at them and
says, "Oh, I like this better or I like that." and then if he likes it then we
go back there and researcher. Today you can Google it. Let me tell you about
that. Because that's on the Boulevard in New York so what I wanted to do. We
weren't gonna shoot in New York so we were in St. Louis and then what I did is,
I matched half a block of New York of that Chock full o'Nuts and I built it out
in the desert. Again, we were trying to save money and I have to tell you
something about John Carpenter. He was very, very similar in his shooting style
to Alfred Hitchcock. When I worked with Hitchcock we built half-sets because
Hitch would only wanna build what he was gonna shoot. So Kurt Russell (Snake
Plissken) is walking down the Chock full o'Nuts and then he goes inside. If John
had panned slightly to the left you would see cactus cause we were out in the
desert so he just shot minimum. He didn't do any reverse shots. We just built
the front of it and then inside and there's where the girl pops up (Season
Hubley: Girl in Chock full o'Nuts). He was very disciplined in that way. I could
build half-sets and we would just build what we talked about as oppose to. Some
directors is like, "Build me everything then I figure out how to shoot it." John
pretty well knew what he was gonna do before we got there.
Let me tell you about that. That was
interesting. Yeah, we had a location and so we built the ring and then I
thought. I wanted to make it look harsher so I put a chain link fence around it.
Interesting. Years later they started doing that with these wrestling things.
They put in a chain link fence. I wanted to make it look real brutal. Normally
boxing rings just have the ropes but yeah, I added the chain link and made it
look a little bit more sinister.
There's a very interesting storyboard print available on your
website where Times Square is seen. The
shooting script dated July 20, 1980
doesn't have a scene involving
the taxi driving through Times Square. Can you shed some light on this?
I've been asked about that. I was doing a Jaws 100 anniversary Universal
thing and Jaws the Blu-ray and they asked me to come to the studio there in
front of the Jaws display and talk to these various reporters. Maybe I
talked to around 25 and one of them said, "You know, the new Batman movie copied a
lot of your stuff from Escape From New York." I said, "What are you talking about?"
He said, "Well you know, they locked in New York then they built these walls of
cars." I said, "You know, yeah." I have this big wall of drawers so I opened
one and I found these rows of drawings. Pencil drawings that I did in 1980
and there was all the walls with cars and so. In somewhere in one of the script
or one of the version when they are driving through New York City I might have
just took it for granted that we were gonna go to Times Square and use that and
maybe we just didn't shoot it. I remembered just talking to Roy Arbogast, he
said that when Snake drives through the wall of cars he had to build it so we
could pull off cars as if he drove through those walls of cars. Yeah, The
Batman series, the recent one did use walls of cars which is sort of
interesting exactly like we did in
Was there any talks about actually doing this scene?
There was talk about
driving through New York. The taxi
thing with Ernie (Ernest) Borgnine (Cabbie). Such a nice man. So anyway. We had a lot of plans to
do things but I guess we're shooting in St. Louis so it was limited to actually. When I did the
sketches obviously I thought they'd be shot in New York. Those are just
hangovers from very early thinking.
Were there more ideas from you, John Carpenter
or someone else that didn't
make it into the movie? Were there any other scenes you would do if the movie
had been shot in New York for instance?
There are always ideas that don't get
into a final film but I can't remember anything in particular that really
bothered me that didn't get in. It's hard to say what we would have shot if we had used New York. Other than Liberty Island we really didn't scout anything in New
We probably would have used the entrance to the Trade Towers.
How was the experience working with the cast and crew and
what went on behind the scenes?
I think basically it was one of the most fun movies. It's two movies that I
have really had a lot of fun just because the crew was good people. One was
Sugarland Express, the first thing I did with Steven and we were just all
over Texas and that was fun and I think Escape From New York was just
good people. I had a good time with Larry Franco who's the first assistant and
John and I had a good relationship. Became very good friends with Debra Hill and
eventually she was dating one of my best friends for many years. She was going
out with Dick Smothers. The Smothers Brothers were very big comedy on television
during around the time of the Vietnam war. They were very progressive and
anti-war and Richard Nixon got them taken off the air because they were sort
of protesting but they were very, very big. Anyway, Dick is a good friend of
mine. I met him racing cars. I used to race formula cars and so he met Debra and
they sort of dating. It's very sad that she passed away so young. Dean Cundey
is an incredible cinematographer and I think we had a great relationship. We
could talk about this and that. It was a lot of night stuff yet you could see. A
lot of these shows that have night and it's just black and you can't even see
the actors but he managed to do it.
What's your favorite memory or memories of working on the movie?
I think it was, yeah, just the relationship with the people was
the most rewarding.
Did you learn anything particular to your profession from making this movie that
was useful in your later work?
I was very impressed with this. Vincent Canby
was a critic for the New York Times and this is a low budget picture. He
mentioned it three times that summer about the movie and the look of the movie
and I think having done big movies, Jaws,
Close Encounters and stuff it made me feel very rewarded by doing this
sort of small picture and getting so much notoriety for the innovative look of
it and people are still interested in it. So I think that's what I learned from.
It's not about budget. It's about ideas and working with a director as creative
as John and a nice team.
What do you think of the movie
which scenes, constructions or sets are you most proud of?
At first I didn't know quite was John was going with it but I think it
had a good balance of humor and innovative sort of quality about it and I
thought Kurt Russell was quite commanding in it. Yeah, it was a very
interesting movie because it didn't take itself too serious and you
could go with it sort of light hearted.
I think it's not a sense of
prudery. It was just. It was pieces. You see, unlike Close Encounters
where I built this huge, huge set. What we were trying to do were pieces and the
Chock full o'Nuts. I think that was probably the most complicated thing.
Why do you think the movie has become a cult classic?
Ah gosh. Who knows? I mean, I really don't know. You
work on movies and you work as hard on the ones that fail as the ones that
succeeds. I just came back from Atlanta where I did a lecture on Jaws for a
company on the innovation of Jaws and next week I'm doing another thing with
Jaws, a festival thing and I got something in April and that will include all
the movies I've worked on pretty much. I never thought Jaws was gonna
be a cult classic. I mean, the thing sort of die after you do them and then I
think with the internet and the last 10, 15 years people can get a hold of
you and younger generations start finding things. My
daughter is in film school and she's taken this class on production management.
Breaking down scripts for budgets and do you know what the teacher
said to her recently, "We're gonna break down a movie called Escape From New York."
Could you believe that? And I said to her, "I think I have my original breakdown
which I did on just lying yellow paper." They do it in the computer and these
programs and so it's quite different but I had it taken into class and the
teacher was quite surprised by it.
Were you ever approached to be involved in Escape From L.A.?
No, the second movie. Larry Paull (Lawrence G.
Paull) did that one.
I did Starman with John as a visual consultant and I did the second unit. I
was really moving into direction at that time and I had a few projects going so
that's why I didn't want to commit to do the production design on Starman and then John
had something to do. He was gonna do Creature From the Black Lagoon or something
and I passed on that. I think what happened is that I got involved in other
projects. I directed Jaws 3 and looked for other things to direct. That was a strange period in my time so I wasn't working.
What are you currently doing and
what do you enjoy
doing in your spare time?
Oh, what do I do now? I've been retired. Beside
these lectures I have probably in the last 10 years done 30 sculptures. Big
sculptures. Full size people. I got into a thing of doing mermaids. I
don't know why. Someone interviewed me from Sweden. This is for a Swedish talk
show of all things you being from Sweden and this was some kind of reality show
and this woman went up to interview the guy who scared everybody. So I come in
and a film crew comes in and a very tall, blond lady comes in. Very nice and she
looks at all my mermaids. I have a fishpond in the house with big coy and
mermaids and she said, "Oh my gosh, the softer side of Jaws." It was sort of fun
but I have so many sculptors. I do them in wood or clay, in carbon foam. Plus,
I'm looking outside through the windows. I've got. Oh my gosh. I got a half a
dozen there. I had originally sculpted the shark in Jaws and I
sculpted some aliens for Close Encounters so that was something I always wanted
to do so that's what I'm doing.
Thank you for your time, Joe.
Joe Alves here:
Storyboards: Copyright Joe Alves